Curse

NeroX · Aug 07, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

As it stands, deadly arts is mostly used to compliment 'other' professions.
Such as eles using Assassins Promise to make their high cooldown builds, quick and energy efficient builds. This is not the problem however...

The problem lies within the assassin itself (disregarding other professions).
I'll run through some of the issues I have encountered when trying to build a deadly arts dominant skill bar:

Widely spread attribute points
Energy efficiency
Skills in 'Limbo'
Skill Chaining (lead att, off-hand, dual att, must follow a dual attack)
Weapon Usage

Widely Spread Attribute Points
The main problem with building a deadly arts assassin is the fear of widely spreading your attribute points. For dagger mastery, critical strikes goes a long way increasing your dmg output and helping out with energy management upon successfully hitting with a critical hit. With just those 2 attribute lines maxed out, you've got a powerfully effective and efficient assassin build. Shadow arts can come into the equation also for some defensive capabilities.
So what about deadly arts... ?

Energy efficiency
This is exactly what Deadly Arts lacks. The only 2 skills in this attribute that have some sort of energy management are the elite skills, assassins promise and Way of the empty palm.

Assassins Promise - Quite unreliable. Can be removed via hex removal skills and requires the target to die to reap the benefits. Rarely will you ever kill a target with a skill bar containing deadly arts skills.

Way of the empty palm - Im' very confused as to why it was allocated in the deadly arts attribute line which its current function, seeing as though there's only one dual attack in deadly arts costing 5 energy and very minimal off-hand options to choose from. I suggest that this elite has the added functionality of "... these off-hand and dual attack skills recharge 25% faster" and be thrown into the shadow arts attribute line just like its inferior version 'Way of the Lotus'.

Skills in 'Limbo'
Heres a short list of skills that I believe that need to have their attributes re-defined:
- Way of the Empty Palm - with its current function, for the above reason.
- Deadly Haste - Deadly art skills do not receive any benefit from critical strikes attribute line so why spread unnecessary attribute points just for this one skill considering all the half-ranged spells are in deadly arts. My suggestion would be to bring it down to either shadow arts or even deadly arts attribute line.
- Vampiric Assault - I keep failing to justify why this skill is in deadly arts. It requires daggers to perform and obviously requires you to be in melee range of your target. While all other skills in deadly arts are either half-ranged spells or full ranged spells, its seems highly unnecessary why you should have to jump through 3 different depths (frontline, midline, backline) in battle. Deadly arts suggests to me that you play as a midliner not a frontliner due to all the ranged abilities. It clearly belongs under dagger mastery. If for some reason you think that would make it overpowered, then I remind you that you cannot achieve a critical hit or gain energy from your critical strikes rank due to its 'life steal' effect.

Skill chaining (lead att, off-hand, dual att, must follow a dual attack)
Deadly arts is 'spell' dominant. I figure there's no argument there. But why do some of these spells have the skill chaining restriction?!? Instead they should have other 'conditional' factors such as this following example...

"Entangling asp poisons target foe. If target foe is under the effects of a hex, they are knocked down."

This allows players to build more interesting skill combinations, rather than having the predictable dancing daggers -> entangling asp combo.

Weapon Usage
All assasin users that try deadly arts like to use an equip that grants a nice amount of energy which is usually a staff. Which brings me back to why vampiric assault doesn't belong in deadly arts. Since you are a midliner and most likely have not invested attribute points in critical strikes for energy management, whats the point in weilding daggers?
An alternative function for Way of the Empty Palm...

"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, (while holding a non-dagger weapon)(?) assassin hexes cost 30% less energy to cast."

If these issues are addressed, then deadly arts may become a much more viable option as they allow for more versatility which assassins somewhat lack.

Paris_On_Godmode · Aug 07, 2010, 12:16 PM // 12:16

this is kinda like saying an elementalist should be able to use all the elements in one bar instead of staying close to 1-2 of them.
deadly arts assassins can still be deadly, if used correctly. i personally earned legendary guardian and still working on vanquisher with an A/Mo build containing deadly arts skills and smiting prayers. useless? i think not. if youre going to use daggers however, i dont think you should be mainly a "deadly arts" assassin. like i said before, its like using a water staff for a fire ele.

HigherMinion · Aug 07, 2010, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I don't understand why there are any dagger attacks in this attribute line. They should either be in Critical Strikes or Dagger Mastery. I don't really see how it's comparable to an elementalist, I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Explain.

Deadly Arts should be full of spells/hexes and condition spreading. Not more daggery stuff.

Fate Crusher · Aug 07, 2010, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

Way of the empty palm - Im' very confused as to why it was allocated in the deadly arts attribute line which its current function, seeing as though there's only one dual attack in deadly arts costing 5 energy and very minimal off-hand options to choose from. I suggest that this elite has the added functionality of "... these off-hand and dual attack skills recharge 25% faster" and be thrown into the shadow arts attribute line just like its inferior version 'Way of the Lotus'.

I don't think you understand it's description. Its all offhands and dual attacks.
Example:
Mark of Instability,Optional (IAS or slow), GPS, Twisting Fangs, Falling Spider, Blades of Steel, WotEP, res.

Great spike bar.

For PvE... I guess you can use it for Fox Fangs/DB.

Also, the reason why most other deadly arts skills have high recharge or high energy is because they were way too strong to begin with. Assassins previously were able to unleash a huge combo without deepwound, but then follow up with a "Finish Him!"-like skill which was Impale. It has since then been reworked (earth damage, slower activation). What i'm getting at is that they were nerfed out of popularity and since then damage combos have been the popular choice.

Xsiriss · Aug 07, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I definitely think all dagger attacks should be in dagger mastery. Vampiric assault would make one hell of a good healing skill to take, much like WoP it sort of encourages flowing play as opposed to havign to break off attacking to cast shadow refuge.

NeroX · Aug 07, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paris_On_Godmode

this is kinda like saying an elementalist should be able to use all the elements in one bar instead of staying close to 1-2 of them.
deadly arts assassins can still be deadly, if used correctly. i personally earned legendary guardian and still working on vanquisher with an A/Mo build containing deadly arts skills and smiting prayers. useless? i think not. if youre going to use daggers however, i dont think you should be mainly a "deadly arts" assassin. like i said before, its like using a water staff for a fire ele.

I think u havent clearly understood what im trying to point out. What im trying to say is that, you need to invest points in 3 or more attribute lines to make a deadly arts build functional.

@Fate Crusher
I have to admit i never thought of a build like that and it seems like a very powerful combo but there are so many other combos out there that are just as good. The question im asking is... "can we make deadly arts just as effective without having to rely on too many other attributes?". I think that this thread gets us a step closer to the answer. What do you think?

Btw, I knew exactly what way of the empty palm is capable of but the main point i was trying to get across here was that i feel it belongs in a different attribute line or be changed completely (if it were to stay in deadly arts) for new, interesting tactics/combinations and i believe what i suggested is a reasonable alternative function that will compliment the use of other skills unique to the deadly arts attribute line.

"...and since then damage combos have been the popular choice. " - Well for one, imo, deadly arts should be used more to "pressure" an opponent rather than "spike" an opponent.

Discuss

NeroX · Aug 07, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Im gonna build a list of new skill functions for current skills in deadly arts.
I'm just throwing ideas out there and hopefully others can branch out from there.

If skill chaining did not exist in deadly art skills...

Way of the Empty Palm
"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, (while holding a non-dagger weapon)(?) assassin hexes cost 30% less energy to cast."

Entangling asp
"Spell. Target foe becomes poisoned. If target foe is under the effects of a hex, they are knocked down."

Impale
"Skill. Target foe is struck for 25...85 earth damage. If target foe is knocked-down, that foe also suffers from deepwound." (does not require dual attack to use)

Scorpion Wire
"Skill. If target foe is moving, they are knocked-down and receive (5...60) earth damage."

Shadow Fang
"Spell. For each hex on you, target foe is struck for (10...30) damage. (max 100 dmg)."
OR
"Spell. Target foe is struck for (10...30) damage for each assassin hex the currently suffer from."

Iron Palm
"Skill. For 3 seconds, the next time you recieve damage, it is reduced by (7...56) base damage and your attacker receives (7...56) damage."

Shadow Prison
"Hex Spell. Adjacent foes move 66% slower and cannot attack for (1...3) seconds. You teleport to a nearby location."

...once again just throwing up ideas for others to feed off

Ka Tet · Aug 07, 2010, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

Im gonna build a list of new skill functions for current skills in deadly arts.
I'm just throwing ideas out there and hopefully others can branch out from there.

If skill chaining did not exist in deadly art skills...

Way of the Empty Palm
"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, (while holding a non-dagger weapon)(?) assassin hexes cost 30% less energy to cast."

Entangling asp
"Spell. Target foe becomes poisoned. If target foe is under the effects of a hex, they are knocked down."

Impale
"Skill. Target foe is struck for 25...85 earth damage. If target foe is knocked-down, that foe also suffers from deepwound." (does not require dual attack to use)

Scorpion Wire
"Skill. If target foe is moving, they are knocked-down and receive (5...60) earth damage."

Shadow Fang
"Spell. For each hex on you, target foe is struck for (10...30) damage. (max 100 dmg)."
OR
"Spell. Target foe is struck for (10...30) damage for each assassin hex the currently suffer from."

Iron Palm
"Skill. For 3 seconds, the next time you recieve damage, it is reduced by (7...56) base damage and your attacker receives (7...56) damage."

Shadow Prison
"Hex Spell. Adjacent foes move 66% slower and cannot attack for (1...3) seconds. You teleport to a nearby location."

...once again just throwing up ideas for others to feed off

No. No. No. No.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 07, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

Im gonna build a list of new skill functions for current skills in deadly arts.
I'm just throwing ideas out there and hopefully others can branch out from there.

If skill chaining did not exist in deadly art skills...

Way of the Empty Palm
"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, (while holding a non-dagger weapon)(?) assassin hexes cost 30% less energy to cast."

Entangling asp
"Spell. Target foe becomes poisoned. If target foe is under the effects of a hex, they are knocked down."

Impale
"Skill. Target foe is struck for 25...85 earth damage. If target foe is knocked-down, that foe also suffers from deepwound." (does not require dual attack to use)

Scorpion Wire
"Skill. If target foe is moving, they are knocked-down and receive (5...60) earth damage."

Shadow Fang
"Spell. For each hex on you, target foe is struck for (10...30) damage. (max 100 dmg)."
OR
"Spell. Target foe is struck for (10...30) damage for each assassin hex the currently suffer from."

Iron Palm
"Skill. For 3 seconds, the next time you recieve damage, it is reduced by (7...56) base damage and your attacker receives (7...56) damage."

Shadow Prison
"Hex Spell. Adjacent foes move 66% slower and cannot attack for (1...3) seconds. You teleport to a nearby location."

...once again just throwing up ideas for others to feed off

That's pretty baed.

Fate Crusher · Aug 08, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

This is what happened when Deadly Arts had a considerable edge:
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/E_...Surge_Assassin
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/P_MoI_Assacaster
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/N_Assacaster
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/N_Deadly_Virulence
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/an...Arts_Spike_Sin

All of them have been archived due to nerfs. Assassin's actually have the largest amount of archived builds on PvX.
I'm sorry but this was duly dealt with after Anet wanted to push for defining the Assassin's role in combat. The profession is supposed to be designed for quick, pressuring attacks on specific targets but has to retreat due to low armour. But if he becomes an effective midline caster with better Armour than actual casters... I'm sorry but that's not on.

Deadly arts should accustom towards an assassin's bar, not become it. Such as a coupe de gras, it's the skill that tweaks the assassin's combo, such as crippling or disrupting dagger.

dan1mal · Aug 08, 2010, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Way of the Empty Palm
"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, (while holding a non-dagger weapon)(?) assassin hexes cost 30% less energy to cast."

just no..

Quote:

Entangling asp
"Spell. Target foe becomes poisoned. If target foe is under the effects of a hex, they are knocked down."

rofl epicly overpowered, its basically a less conditional version of gust that also inflicts poison.. and its non elite, free kd's anyone?

Quote:

Impale
"Skill. Target foe is struck for 25...85 earth damage. If target foe is knocked-down, that foe also suffers from deepwound." (does not require dual attack to use)

lulz crushing blow on the midline.. dont..

Quote:

Scorpion Wire
"Skill. If target foe is moving, they are knocked-down and receive (5...60) earth damage."

lulz, bulls strike on the midline.. more free kd's

Quote:

Shadow Fang
"Spell. For each hex on you, target foe is struck for (10...30) damage. (max 100 dmg)."
OR
"Spell. Target foe is struck for (10...30) damage for each assassin hex the currently suffer from."

wtf there are no assasin hexes actually usefull...

Quote:

Iron Palm
"Skill. For 3 seconds, the next time you recieve damage, it is reduced by (7...56) base damage and your attacker receives (7...56) damage."

why change whats not broken?

Quote:

Shadow Prison
"Hex Spell. Adjacent foes move 66% slower and cannot attack for (1...3) seconds. You teleport to a nearby location."

wow.. wtf is this supposed to be?..

all in all we should be glad that ur not on the gw nerfbat squad.. this shit is rediculous.
also ur moaning is not reasonable:
Deadly arts is definantly useable, just for specific roles, such as an MoI sin which can easily solo a prot, because it turns its stances (lol 2 second b-stance) and prots (lol 1 second guardian) off. They're just not mainstream, because they suck at mainteam, however in byob, or any other pvp format where 1v1 is going to happen they are highly efficient

zelgadissan · Aug 08, 2010, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

Deadly Haste - Deadly art skills do not receive any benefit from critical strikes attribute line so why spread unnecessary attribute points just for this one skill considering all the half-ranged spells are in deadly arts. My suggestion would be to bring it down to either shadow arts or even deadly arts attribute line.

Your thread is about trying to make Deadly Arts more viable for Assassins as opposed to other professions, correct? Certain skills belong in the primary attribute of a class for this exact reason - so other professions can't abuse it even further. Moving this to Deadly Arts just makes it even easier to run a X/A bar.

Moving Vampiric Assault could be an issue in PvP - namely GvG where the only real job for an assassin is to split off and survive solo, killing enemies in the base. I can't think of a skill to replace it for, but somebody much better than I surely could.

I won't even begin to go into that other list of skills you posted, but just know that they're awful.

*lemming* · Aug 08, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Deadly Paradox needs to go.

Shriketalon · Aug 08, 2010, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paris_On_Godmode

this is kinda like saying an elementalist should be able to use all the elements in one bar instead of staying close to 1-2 of them.

Yeah, to do that, they would have to be some kind of Master of Magic...

Seriously, though, fixing Deadly Arts requires three things...

1) An elite that counts as a dual attack. There's nothing in the attribute line that allows one to bridge the "counts as an offhand" and "must follow a dual attack" half ranged spells.

For example, just as hypothetical musings...

Change Siphon Strength so it fires two projectiles, the first inflicting weakness, the second inflicting cracked armor. Fulfills the same purpose (target gets hit harder, can't deal as much damage), but has more synergy with other Deadly Arts skills that rely on conditions.

Make Hidden Caltrops into a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't ability that deals one nasty effect while the target is moving (similar to Shameful Fear), but deals a different condition if he stays still.

Have Shroud of Silence last for a longer duration, with the offhand requirement/dual attack equivalent acting as a balance mechanism.

2) Make more spells count as lead or offhand, or follow them. Right now, the only chain that exists is Iron Palm/Dancing Daggers -> Mantis Touch -> go into melee range for a dagger attack -> Impale, with Entangling Asp hanging in between the lead equivalent and Mantis. Round out the selection to allow an actual build to take place. For instance...

Lead Attack Equivalents-> Caltrops, Crippling Dagger, Disrupting Dagger, Shadow Fang (counts as a lead attack on shadow step).
Offhand Equivalents-> Scorpion Wire (Counts as an offhand if the shadow step was successful), etc.

3) Completely redesign Deadly Paradox.

In its current form, it is not a good skill. If it is too effective, it is absolutely necessary for a Deadly Artist, who will be worthless without it. If it is not energy efficient, no one will bring it along. Instead, redesign the skill to have a different effect that is beneficial, yet not required.

Sirius Bsns · Aug 08, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Move Caltrops to Deadly Arts and change it to:
Energy: 5
Cast Time: 1 second
Recharge: 5 seconds
(Elite Half Range Spell.) Three projectiles: each deals 5...29...35 earth damage. Moving foes take +1...8...10 additional [armor-ignoring] damage and are crippled for 0...12...15 seconds. Counts as a lead attack.

jazilla · Aug 08, 2010, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Move Caltrops to Deadly Arts and change it to:
Energy: 5
Cast Time: 1 second
Recharge: 5 seconds
(Elite Half Range Spell.) Three projectiles: each deals 5...29...35 earth damage. Moving foes take +1...8...10 additional [armor-ignoring] damage and are crippled for 0...12...15 seconds. Counts as a lead attack.

105 earth damage+30 additional damage=100+damage and a cripple?! wut? this thread is outrageous! with a 5 second recharge!?

maxxfury · Aug 08, 2010, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Deadly Paradox needs to go.

Bingo!

Then they can re balance the line without having to take into account this crapper of a skill. Same deal as MOR for a mes....skills that modify whole attribute lines like these do are a nightmare...

Having all skill balanced around the assumption that you will take it and that all skills will gain the faster recharge,this means extended recharges to start with, then when you dont take it, your skills are all gimped...

Reverend Dr · Aug 08, 2010, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Deadly arts has no caster gear. For it to be worthwhile on a sin, then it is going to have to be worthwhile at around 8 spec. Sin's primary attribute has no benefit for casting. As such, deadly arts is always going to be superior on an X/A than on an assassin primary.

It is a poorly thought out skill line. A simple rework is at best going to change nothing and at worst make the game worse off (power creep). A substantial rework, which the first step is a deletion of the current skill line, is just not going to happen.

reaper with no name · Aug 08, 2010, 05:41 AM // 05:41

I want more dagger-throwing skills. And shorter recharges on the existing ones. Maybe make them armor-ignoring too. Since they're half-range spells, they should be in-between melee and ranged in the damage department, right?

On a somewhat more serious note, I fail to see why this attribute has to be good. There are several attribute lines in the game that have very little worth using in them (especially for the primary profession).

Examples:

Spawning Power - Still the worst primary attribute. Does anyone use it for something besides Soul Twisting?

Mysticism - It's got Heart of Fury, and... not much else to justify it's use.

Beast Mastery - Pets still suck.

Wilderness Survival - Traps that are too slow to be of use, nature rituals that hurt you as much as the enemy, and some preparations. Definitely won't be winning the attribute of the year award.

Motivation - I don't think I even need to explain this one.

So, the question then becomes, why should Deadly Arts be any different? Why does it have to be good?

NeroX · Aug 08, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

wow ... thx guys for jumping at my throat for "IDEAS" i threw up in the air on the spot. Ideas need to be refined and in the case they haven't been coz they were intended as "food for thought" as i mentioned in that post.

However, i kinda diverted the topic when posting these skill ideas.

So i ask again, is there no other way we can make deadly arts more functional than it is now?
I want it to be a productive thread, and in saying this I encourage disagreements and agreements but with reason.
If you just say no, then don't even bother posting.

those who say NO! should at least justify why.

@an1mal
Way of the empty palm ..... "just no" .... hmm, that tells me a lot. Did you mean it to be overpowered or underpowered or another reason?
How about try working 'with' the idea and not just shrug it off completely for whatever reason? I know it may not be a good idea in all BUT its an 'idea' (ideas dont hurt people).

@reaper with no name
To answer your question... well I did make the thread under "Assassin" category. So other professions and their problems are irrelevant here.

@Fate Crusher
So you dont believe in build versatility? I ask the question because wouldnt it be even better if you had the OPTION of having a full deadly arts build rather than just having this attribute line just to tweak existing assassin combos?